World War II - Crash Landing

Question 1.	John Stevenson Trinity, Edinburgh	- Crash or Landing on Carrick Knowe Golf Course

Reply 1.	Ken Smith Calgary, Alberta, Canada	- No Planes - Home Guard - Butterfly Bombs
Reply 2.	George T Smith Calgary, Alberta, Canada	- Crash or Landing?
Reply 3.	Brian Farish Saughtonhall, Edinburgh	- Not Carrick Knowe - Possibly Murrayfield
Reply 4.	Maurice McIlwrick North Gyle, Edinburgh	- Not Carrick Knowe - Another Golf Course - Golf Course Book
Reply 5.	John Chittenden Gosport, Hampshire, England	- Carrick Knowe
Reply 6.	Lilian Young Hamilton Square, New Jersey, USA	- Carrick Knowe
Reply 7.	Alan Melville Tasmania, Australia	- Carrick Knowe
Reply 8.	Maurice McIlwrick North Gyle, Edinburgh	- Not Carrick Knowe - Another Golf Course - Golf Course Book
Reply 9.	Alison Smith	- Memorial Cairn
Reply 10.	Alison Smith (née Mavor) Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada	- Memorial Cairn - Craiglockhart Community Council - Craiglockhart has changed - Vancouver has also changed

Recollections

George T Smith
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

- Craiglockhart School

- Aircraft Crash

Recollections

Alison Smith (née Mavor)
White Rock, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

- Journey Home

- Location of the Crash

- Rumours

- Fortunate

Recollections

Alison Smith (née Mavor)
White Rock, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

- Spitfire Flypast

- Dogfight

- World Heritage Site

Recollections

Trevor Buck
White Rock, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

- Two Aircraft Crashes

Recollections

David Hollingdale
Cramond, Edinburgh

- Spitfires collision - Inverleith

Question

John Stevenson

Trinity, Edinburgh

John Stevenson, Trinity, Edinburgh, wrote:

Question

Crash or Landing

Carrick Knowe Golf Course

"I have had a query from a friend who is writing a book on 'Golf Courses of West Edinburgh'. He has a story that during WW2 an aeroplane British/German (?) crashed or landed on Carrick Knowe Golf Course.

I have checked 'Scotsman archive', and have spoken with a few folk who lived in the area at that time, but no one has any knowledge.

Do you know anything about a crash or landing?"

John Stevenson, Trinity, Edinburgh: September 24, 2010

Reply to John?

If you know anything about the incident that John mentions above, please email me, then I'll pass on your message to him.

Thank you.

Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: September 29, 2010

Reply

Ken Smith

Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Thank you to Ken Smith who replied:

Carrick Knowe Golf Course

No Planes

"I lived throughout the war across the tracks from Carrick Knowe golf course and do not recall any planes landing. If such happened, I know it would have been the talk of the town plus it would be wedged in my memory as have many other events from that time.

There were very high poles with attached guy wires throughout the course to prevent glider landings."

Home Guard

"The LDV (Local Defence Volunteers), later known as the Home Guard, were on the golf course practising most of the time, especially at weekends. When they were not there,we would sneak across the tracks and go hunting for shrapnel from hand grenades they tossed at bunkers, etc.

Butterfly Bombs

"There was a rumor that circulated around school that `butterfly bombs` had been found on the course. This was at a time when documentaries were shown in the schools and cinemas about them, advising you not to go near or touch any of the brightly colored objects but to report them to the `bobby` or Air Raid Warden. (This could pose a problem as we were not supposed to be on the closed golf course in the first place!)"

Ken Smith, Calgary, Alberta, Canada: September 29, 2010

Reply

Brian Farish

Saughtonhall, Edinburgh

Thank you to Brian Farish who wrote:

Crash or Landing?

Not Carrick Knowe

"Whilst trying to research a totally different subject relating to Edinburgh during the war years, I came upon the item re aircraft in Carrick Knowe Golf Course.

I have lived in proximity to this Golf Course for over 75 years, played on the course and knew of people who used the course for Home Guard practice on Sundays during the war . I can assure John Stevenson that no such event took place on Carrick Knowe golf course."

Possibly Murrayfield

"However, from the depths of my memory, I have a feeling that an RAF aircraft, presumably out of Turnhouse, did in fact make a crash landing during the war on a golf course on the south side of the city. It may have been Craiglockhart, but I am not too sure. I hope this helps."

Brian Farish, Saughtonhall, Edinburgh: October 27, 2010

Reply

Maurice McIlwrick
(McIlwrick)
The name is not very clear in Aerial font

North Gyle, Edinburgh

Thank you to Maurice McIlwrick who wrote:

Not Carrick Knowe

"I am the person who started the chase for a crashed aircraft at Carrick Knowe!

I had lunch with John Stevenson and mentioned my quest. I had already checked with Brian Farish who I knew and had already confirmed no aircraft crashed there."

Another Golf Course?

"So. I'm now looking for an aircraft that may have crashed elsewhere in West Edinburgh on a golf course! At present, there are 36 golf courses to the west of a line drawn through the Castle north and south, going west out as far as Linlithgow.

Golf Course Book

"I am writing a the book on the unusual features of the golf courses, past and present, in West Edinburgh. Consequently, I would value any information that I could incorporate.

The book is not for profit. It's only as a hobby. I'd like to make it available to the courses I describe."

Maurice McIlwrick: November 19, 2010

Reply to Maurice?

If you have any information that you'd like to pass on to Maurice, please email me, then I'll pass on your message to him.

Thank you.

Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: November 26, 2010

Reply

John Chittenden

Gosport, Hampshire, England

Thank you to John Chittenden who wrote:

Carrick Knowe

"I have spoken to my father (also John Chittenden) and his brother (Arthur Chittenden) at separate times. They both confirm that an aircraft did crash land on Carrick Knowles golf course.

It happened in the late-1940s. Both my father and his brother lived at 23 Glendevon park, which backs onto the old railway line and golf course. My dad remembers that it crashed near to the bridge that you go under to enter the golf course

If you go under the bridge and turn right, there used to be doors set into the embankment in which the tractor and grass cutting equipment were kept. The aircraft came to rest near there.

My father's brother remembers that a large trailer came from the Royal Air Force to retrieve the aircraft. So it appear to have been an RAF aircraft."

John Chittenden, Gosport, Hampshire, England: March 25, 2012

Reply

Lilian Young

Hamilton Square, New Jersey, USA

Thank you to Lilian Young who wrote:

To the South of Corstorphine Road

"Regarding the plane which crashed in Edinburgh, we lived at Saughton Loan and when we heard of the crash all the adults and children walked along Saughton Hall across Balgreen Road and went towards Pinkhill station.

The plane was in a field there and our local Home Guard and members of the service were there. The service men had guns and we were kept at length by the Home Guard.

This field would be located across Corstorphine Road from the area of the Zoo, so perhaps it was close to the gold course at Carrick Knowe.

My brother loved planes and has always maintained that it was a German Plane, but that is a 'family legend' that I am unable to prove as my lovely brother has passed away

Another thing I recall is that there was snow on the roadway and in the field so that perhaps dates it closer."

Lilian Young, Hamilton Square, New Jersey: March 26, 2012

Reply

Alan Melville

Tasmania, Australia

Thank you to Alan Melville for replying to Maurice McIlwrick's comments above.

Alan wrote

Carrick Knowe Golf Course

"I'm a bit late replying to Maurice McIlwrick's question regarding a plane crash landing at Carrick Knowles Golf Course.

My father lived at Stenhouse Avenue, West Edinburgh, from 1939 until 1959. He always told a story of a German plane crash- landing, during WWII, on the golf course across the railway line from his house.

The plane flew in low, and even smashed some chimneys. All the boys in the street ran to it, using sticks as pretend guns, but when they saw someone coming out they ran for their lives.

I've been trying to find a photo of the event but have not even found any reference to it until I read this post on the EdinPhoto site. I'd love to hear whether you found out any more since 2010."

Alan Melville, Tasmania, Australia: June 23, 2012

No More News Yet

Hi Alan. Thanks for your reply above. All that I have been told on the subject of the aircraft crash has already been added to this page.

If anybody else tells me anything more, I'll update this page again to include it, and I'll try to remember to send you an email to let you know about it.

Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: June 26, 2012

Reply

Maurice McIlwrick
(McIlwrick)
The name is not very clear in Aerial font

North Gyle, Edinburgh

Thank you to Maurice McIlwrick who wrote:

Aircraft Crash Puzzle - Carrick Knowe Golf Course

"We are still puzzled regarding the plane crash on Carrick Knowe Golf Course. Brian Farish has done considerable investigation on this subject and failed to find any reference to this incident in any of the official records.

If the eyewitnesses are correct, the only explanation that could fit the situation would be embarrassment to the RAF who cleared the site very rapidly.

Even that is difficult to accept as the golf course club house was used by the Home Guard as one of their bases.

My own brother was involved there until 1942 when he joined the RAF and I feel sure he would have mentioned this incident even after the war. Unfortunately he died 3 years ago."

Maurice McIlwrick: July 15, 2012

Reply

George Smith

Nanaimo, Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada

Thank you to George Smith who wrote:

Aircraft Crash

Craiglockhart Memorial Cairn

"I understand from my friend, Alison Smith (née Mavor) that a memorial cairn is to be unveiled at the site of the 1942 Wellington Air Crash on November 11, 2012.

I hope that Alison will provide you with more details in the next day or two. I think the memorial will make a fitting conclusion to the comments on this topic on the EdinPhoto web site."

George T Smith, Nanaimo, Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada: October 11, 2012

Alison Smith did indeed contact me the following day. See Reply 10 below.

Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: October 16. 2012

Reply

10.

Alison Smith (née Mavor)

White Rock, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Thank you to Alison Smith (née Mavor) who wrote:

Aircraft Crash

Craiglockhart Memorial Cairn

"Here is a message that I received from Gordon Buchan about the unveiling of a commemorative cairn at Craiglockhart Road North, commemorating the five servicemen who died in an air crash in 1942.

Gordon wrote:

Memorial Cairn

Craiglockhart Community Council has almost completed the memorial cairn at Craiglockhart Road North to remember the 4 RAF and 1 USASC servicemen who died in an air crash in December 1942.

The Community Council plan to unveil the cairn on the afternoon of Remembrance Sunday, November 11, 2012

I am hoping that:

- the Lord Provost will unveil the cairn.

- the local church minister dedicate

- hopefully, relatives of the aircrew may also wish to say a few words.

I am trying to ensure that representatives of the RAF and USASC will also be present.

Gordon Buchan, Craiglockhart, Edinburgh

It's admirable just how hard Gordon must have been working to organise the building of the memorial cairn almost two years after he had the idea and over seventy years after the event."

Alison Smith (née Mavor), Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada October 12, 2012

Alison added:

Craiglockhart Community Council

"As you know the memorial cairn has been organised by Craiglockhart Community Council.

When I lived in Craiglockhart (the same era as George Smith) there was a very strong Craiglockhart Residents Association in the close-knit community. I'm glad to see that the community spirit is obviously still there."

Craiglockhart has Changed

"However, I have to say that I find it rather claustrophobic when I go back to Craiglockhart now. So many green spaces have been built over and Craiglockhart Road North has been closed off to traffic just beyond Craiglockhart View - a good traffic change I presume, but it adds to the closed-in feeling for me."

Vancouver has also Changed

"But then, Vancouver has also changed drastically since I came here 51 years ago. The lovely little seaside resort of White Rock which has been my home for 36 years is continually being densified in the name of progress, but there is no evidence of providing for the extra traffic on our streets.

Obviously I have lived too long!"

Alison Smith (née Mavor), White Rock, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada October 12, 2012

Recollections

George Smith

Nanaimo, Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada

Thank you to George Smith for sending me recollections of a plane crash in Edinburgh during World War II. George tells me that this was one of several aircraft crashes in the Edinburgh area during World War II

George wrote

Craiglockhart School

"I recently had a vivid recollection of an event in a wartime classroom at Craiglockhart school. One sunny day, we were startled to hear an unfamiliar loud noise followed by a crackling noise."

Aircraft Crash

"Some pupils left their seats, ran to the west-facing windows but saw nothing. We learned the following day that these noises were those of a plane crash on a piece of waste ground near the pedestrian bridge over the canal at the top of Alan Park Drive.

By the time I went to the site it had been cleared of wreckage and wartime censorship kept much of the details secret. I knew the area fairly well and remember that there had been some sort of anti- aircraft gun emplacement there early in the war."

George Smith, Nanaimo, Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada, September 23, 2011

Recollections

Alison Smith (née Mavor)

White Rock, Vancouver British Columbia, Canada

George mentioned that his friend, Alison Smith (née Mavor), who lived close to the plane crash in 'Recollections 5 above, also remembered the crash.

George passed on Alison's comments to me.

Alison wrote:

Journey Home

"On the day of the crash, my sister and I arrived at the top of Craiglockhart View, on our way home from school, to find barricades across the street and a policeman standing guard.

He asked our names and what we were doing there. Luckily, our Mum was on the watch and came running up. She confirmed we were her daughters and all lived at No. 2.

We were whisked into the house and told about the plane crash but kept well guarded so we could not go and look."

Location of the Crash

"There are many conflicting stories because we all remember things differently.

The bomber did not crash into the back garden of a house. It passed over the flat area on the south side of the Union Canal where we all had allotments to 'Dig for Victory' and hit the steep slope of grassy area at the top, between two houses flanking the vacant ground. The house to the east had more damage than that on the west.

Rumour had it that the pilot tried to land on the School sports ground at Meggetland on the north side of the canal. The crew tried to wave the children off the field but, assuming it to be friendly greetings, the youngsters just returned the waves. Whether or not that is true, what is obvious is that these brave young men gave their lives to ensure that they would harm neither the bungalows nor the inhabitants."

Rumours

"As was usual in those days, we kids were told very little, but we knew that the plane had burned and that all on board must have died in the explosion.

Another rumour was that the crew were all Northern American, but we now know that four were British and one American. The site had a morbid fascination for us and was not a very pleasant thought. These airmen come into my mind on November 11, each year."

Fortunate

"Only now, researching this information after hearing from my friend George, do I realise fully how fortunate we all were, thanks to these five airmen."

Acknowledgements

- Article by Sandra Dicke in The Scotsman: February 18, 2011.

- Article in Scotsman Archive web site

- Article in Commonwealth Forum web site

Alison Smith (née Mavor), White Rock, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, 2011

Recollections

Alison Smith (née Mavor)

White Rock, Vancouver British Columbia, Canada

Thank you to Alison Smith for writing again, about 4 years after her 'Recollections 2' above..

Alison wrote

Spitfire Flypast

"I've just seen the Scotsman’s photos of the Spitfire Fly-past over the Forth Bridge last Wednesday, commemorating the dogfight over the bridge in October 1939 and as a part of the Bridge’s 125th Anniversary Celebrations."

Dogfight

"I remember seeing the dogfight over the bridge in 1939. We and all our neighbours were in our back gardens at Craiglockhart View, heads straining up to see the planes which we assumed were in a practice air battle. Sirens sounded after it was all over. It was an exciting event for an 8 year old.

More than twenty years later I discovered that my boss in Vancouver had watched the same event from his aunt’s garden in Fife."

World Heritage Status

"Let’s hope that wonderful bridge, a part of our Scottish history, will be made a World Heritage Site."

Alison Smith (née Mavor), White Rock, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada: March 6, 2015

Reply

Yes, let's hope that the Forth Bridge will be granted World Heritage status. I believe that it certainly deserves it. An announcement was originally expected during 2014, so maybe we'll not have to wait much longer now to hear the result.

Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: March 7, 2015

Recollections

Trevor Buck

Craiglockhart, Edinburgh

Thank you to Trevor Buck who wrote:

Two Aircraft Crashes

"There has been a long interchange about crashed aircraft in Edinburgh during World War II. It seems clear that there were two aircraft that crashed:

- One on a golf course at Carrick Knowe

- The other was in Meggetland / Craiglockhart.

This Aircrew Remembered web site documents the latter."

Trevor Buck, Craiglockhart, June 11, 2015

Recollections

David Hollingdale

Cramond, Edinburgh

Thank you to David Hollingdale who wrote:

Inverleith

Spitfire Collision

"I remember very vividly whilst walking to Flora Stevenson's School, I would guess about 1942, watching two Spitfires putting on an impromptu aerobatic display roughly above Fettes College.

Unfortunately, they collided with each other. I saw one pilot bail out, parachute opened, and he survived uninjured. His plane ended up with its nose in a fence just opposite the entrance to Inverleith Park in East Fettes Avenue. Anyone could (and I did) walk right up to the crashed plane, pretty well intact. There was no security at all to stop this.

The other Spitfire veered off North-East and crashed into the Botanic Gardens with the pilot still in it, he was killed instantly. That pilot was from East Lothian. I am sure there must be photographs somewhere of the plane in East Fettes Avenue."

David Hollingdale, Cramond, Edinburgh: 29 March 2017 (2 emails)

Article in 'The Scotsman'

David wrote again, a few minutes after sending his message above, to tell me that he had now found an article about the collision in 'The Scotsman' newspaper of 20 Sep 2010. Here is a link to the article:

Spitfire Collision

Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: 2 April 2017