Howard Place - Looking to the North from Canonmills towards Goldenacre

© Reproduced with acknowledgement to Chris Douglas, Manager of The Orchard Bar, Howard Place, Canonmills, Edinburgh
who found these photos, and to Allan Dodds, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England for telling me about them..

Photo

Early-1900s

Comparison

Thank you to Chris Douglas, Manager of The Orchard Bar, formerly Northern Bar, Canonmills, Edinburgh, for allowing me to reproduce this photo and other old photos of Edinburgh. Chris recently found these photos in the basement of The Orchard Bar.

The Street

This view looks up Howard Place, one of the sections of Inverleith Row, looking to the north towards Goldenacre. The Orchard Bar is on the east side of Inverleith Row near Canonmills, close to where this photo was taken from. It is just out of this photo on the right-hand side.

There are three horse-drawn vehicles in the picture. What is that in the middle of the road beyond the central one. Is it an old tram?

Photo

2011

Recent Photo

The buildings in this photo, taken in 2011, look almost identical to those in the photo taken in the early 1900s. The street has more traffic and parked cars in 2011, and there has been a lot of growth in the trees.

New lamp posts have been installed, bollards have been put on the pavement in the foreground to stop cars parking there, and there is a larg communal refuse bin in the street just beyond the bollards.

Replies
1.	Allan Dodds Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England	- Date of Photo 1 - Horse-Drawn Tram
2.	Peter Stubbs Edinburgh	- Cable Tram?
3.	Allan Dodds Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England	- Four Rails
4.	Peter Stubbs Edinburgh	- Cable Tram?
5.	Allan Dodds Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England	- Tollcross Tram
6.	Peter Stubbs Edinburgh	- Tram Tracks
7.	Peter Stubbs Edinburgh	- Tram Tracks - Single Track
8.	Allan Dodds Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England	- Tram Tracks
9.	Peter Stubbs Edinburgh	- Tram Tracks
10.	Allan Dodds Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England	- Tram Tracks
11.	Peter Stubbs Edinburgh	- Cable Tram?
12.	Danny Callaghan Falkirk, Stirlingshire, Scotland	- Cable Car Winding Station - Cable Cars in Pitt Street - Howard Place Butchers
13.	Danny Callaghan Falkirk, Stirlingshire, Scotland	- Cable Car Winding Station - Horse Drawn Trams - The Cable System
14.	David King Trinity, Edinburgh	- Horse Buses - Was there a Single Track? - Howard Street Photo

Reply

Date of Photo 1

Two days ago, Alan Dodds raised the question of the date of Photo above, two days ago. Since then, I have been discussing the topic with him.

I'm now added this discussion so far to this page so that others will be able to join in if they wish to. See Replies 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 below.

Alan wrote:

Horse-Drawn Tram?

"Studying this photo

I'm pretty sure that the tram is horse-drawn because cable trams, when they were introduced, required a third 'rail' in the middle which concealed the underground cable.

There is no third rail in this photograph, so it predates cable trams. If you could enlarge the photo you would see the horse in front of the tram as it's on the right track approaching the photographer".

Allan Dodds, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England: January 12, 2012

Reply

Peter Stubbs

Edinburgh

I replied:

Cable Tram?

"My impression, on looking at that photo was that the rails in the street do include a third rail - but you can only see one of the three rails on the right-hand side of the road.

The rails look to me to be too close together for us to be seeing two double rails. I hope that makes sense to you!

Incidentally, I believe that the cable car line to Goldenacre opened on 28 January 1888.

Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: January 12, 2012

Reply

Peter Stubbs

Edinburgh

I replied:

Cable Tram?

"I was also able to only see four lines in the photo, though perhaps a higher resolution photo would show more.

My comments were based on the fact that cable car tram tracks in Edinburgh were the same gauge as railway lines - 4ft 8.5ins apart - and I flet that the lines in the photo looked to be probably nearer to about 2ft 4ins apart than 4ft 8ins apart."

Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: January 13, 2012

Reply

Allan Dodds

Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England

Alan replied:

Tollcross Tram

"In this photo of the last horse-drawn tram in Tollcross, the rails look just as close together as those in Inverleith Row, but in fact they are two horse widths."

Allan Dodds, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England: January 14, 2012

Reply

Peter Stubbs

Edinburgh

I replied to Allan:

Tram Tracks

"I find it difficult to compare the widths of the tram tracks in the two photos that you mention.

However, looking at the wheels on the back axle of the coach in the Inverleith Row photo, I conclude that:

(a) If the coach was running over cable car tracks, its back wheels would be probably almost five feet apart.

(b) If the coach was running over 'standard gauge double tracks', then its back wheels would be about nine or ten feet apart.

I don't know much about coaches, but (b) seems more likely than (a) to me.

Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: January 13, 2012

Reply

Peter Stubbs

Edinburgh

I added:

Tram Tracks

"I've now looked briefly at DLG Hunter's book 'Edinburgh's Transport: The Early Years' This book has a wealth of detail on Edinburgh's early public transport. Here is what I found:

Horse-drawn trams started to operate in Edinburgh around 1871, but I can find no mention of them ever having operated on a route to Canonmills and Goldenacre. I assume that the long climb up Dundas Street to Hanover Street would have been too tiring for the horses.

So if the trams tracks have just two rails in each direction, could they be the tracks for the electric trams that came in 1922 after the cable trams, rather than horse-drawn trams. I don't think so. I see no sign of overhead wires for electric trams in the Howard Street photo."

Single-Track

"However, if the lines in the Howard Street photo are for cable cars, then I still have difficulty understanding the photo, since DLG Hunter on page 77 of his book, 'Edinburgh's Transport: The Early Years' speaks of the Cable Car route between Canonmills and Goldenacre as being single-track with passing loops near Eildon Street. Perhaps this line was later converted to double- track some time during the cable car operations."

Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: January 14, 2012

Reply

Allan Dodds

Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England

After reading that I had added our correspondence over the past couple of days to the web site, so that others could join in if they wished to, Allan replied:

Tram Tracks

"Yes, perhaps someone will come up with a definitive answer!

Next time I'm up in Edinburgh, I'll measure the width of the road and see if I can work out the proportions.

Allan Dodds, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England: January 15, 2012

However, it won't be necessary for Allan to do any measuring.

See 'Reply 9' below.

Reply

Peter Stubbs

Edinburgh

Tram Tracks

I visited Howard Place this afternoon and took a few measurements.

I found that the pavement on each side of the road was 6ft wide, and that the width of the road between the pavements was 30 ft.

Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: January 16, 2012

Reply

11.

Peter Stubbs

Edinburgh

Cable Car Tracks?

Measurements

Yes the lines are quite close together. I've measured the dimensions my screen, taking the readings horizontally across the picture at the distance of the nearest coach wheels and found:

(a) width of 6 ft pavement on left = 20cm

(b) width of 30ft road = 120cm

(c) width from 1st to 3rd rail line = 18cm.

So this gives a distance from 1st to 3rd rail of about :

- 6ft x 18/20 = 5ft 5ins.

- 30ft x 18/120 = 4ft 6ins.

There will, no doubt be some error due to inaccurate measurement of the photo and distortion due to the perspective of the picture. However, the measurements above for lines 1 and 3 seem to be a good match for the dimensions of cable car tracks.

For cable cars, the two tracks for the wheels (lines 1 and 3) were 4ft 8.5 ins apart, with a track for the cable (line 2) between them.

I hope that all makes sense!

Puzzle

The one thing that still puzzles me and does not fit in with my comments above is that I can still offer no explanation as to what line 4 on the photo might be.

Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: January 164, 2012

Reply

12.

Danny Callaghan

Falkirk, Stirlingshire, Scotland

Thank you to Danny Callaghan for joining in the discussion;

Danny wrote:

Cable Car Winding Station

"The cable car winding station was in Henderson Row, just along from Pitt Street as it was called then. It could also have been the workshop etc. I remember this being the police garage and workshops when I was a kid. The public washhouse was to the west of it. The site was taken over for new offices for Scottish Life Assurance approx. 1990. Does Scottish Life still exist?*"

* Scottish Life is no longer an independent company. It demutualised and was acquired by Royal London Mutual Insurance Company in 2001 - Peter Stubbs.

"When they demolished the police garage there was some of the original cable car winding gear and part of this was installed at the entrance of the new offices. I have tried to see this on Google street view but a big Royal Mail van is sitting outside. There is also a large panel telling the history of the building but I cannot read it.**"

** Over the past couple of years, I've taken several photos of this building, including the history panel that Danny mentions, and a panel featuring some old winding gear on the east side of the building. I've not yet had chance to add these photos to the EdinPhoto web site. - Peter Stubbs.

Cable Cars in Pitt Street

"I remember my dad who was born 1908 and lived in Leith Street Terrace and went to St Mary’s School in Albany Street telling me that as kids they used to hang on the back of the cable cars as then went up what was then Pitt Street (now Dundas Street).

Could it be that the cable only ran down as far as Canonmills and then the trams were horse pulled to Goldenacre?***"

*** No. Danny dismissed this idea in his 'Recollections 12' below. - Peter Stubbs.

Howard Place Butcher

"Also looking closely at the picture of Howard Place where Wilson the Butcher was on corner of Inverleith Terr there appears to be game or similar hanging as mentioned by Donnie Graham in recollection 20 on Tanfield."

Danny Callaghan, Falkirk, Stirlingshire, Scotland: January 17, 2012

Reply

13.

Danny Callaghan

Falkirk, Stirlingshire, Scotland

Danny wrote again, adding:

Cable Car Winding Station

"After sending last email on Howard Place, I had further search about Edinburgh cable cars and found this page on the Cable Car Guy web site. It includes links to two pages that give a history of the Princes Street to Goldenacre cable car line as opening on 28 January 1888* and give engineering details.

* This agrees with 'Reply 2' above.. - Peter Stubbs.

Horse Drawn Trams

"Reading further on the Cable Car Guy web pages give information about the construction of the cable trough and it dimensions.

It would appear that the Howard Place picture would pre-date the cable cars. Certainly I can see no evidence of the cable trough. ** My though in previous email about horses taking over at Canonmills must be wrong.

** Danny: The cable trough may have had to be fairly large to accommodate the cables and grippers, but the trough was covered over leaving just two rails very close together with a small gap between them, through which the gripper passed.

So there would be no trough visible. See the photo below of the cable car lines from North Bridge approaching Register House at the East End of Princes Street.
. - Peter Stubbs.

The Cable System

"Reading how the cable slot was constructed sounds a superb feat of engineering. The total cost of constructing the line from Princes Street to Trinity and another to Comely Bank was £57,230, including the winding station and offices. The gripper pads on the trams used to last about 6 weeks.

There is no mention of the construction time, but you can be sure it would not have been the saga*** of the present tram construction."

*** Agreed:

- The Act of Parliament for construction of the line was passed in August 1884.

- A further Act giving permission for connecting the lines to the depot in Henderson row was passed in July 1887.

- The line to Goldenacre opened in January 1888.

- Peter Stubbs.

Danny Callaghan, Falkirk, Stirlingshire, Scotland: January 17, 2012

Reply

14.

David King

Trinity, Edinburgh

Thank you to David King for replying. David is owner of the Granton HIstory web site, which includes this tram map of Edinburgh and Leith in 1920.

David replied:

Horse Buses

"As far as I can find out from David Hunter’s book, etc. there never were horse trams between Goldenacre and Hanover Street. The service was provided by horse buses, which reportedly required up to five horses to get the buses up Dundas Street.

Was there a Single Track?

"It’s quite right to say that a single line for the cable cars was ‘proposed’, but that may not have been what was built, or there may have been a later change.

In fact single lines introduced complexity as there had to be two cables under one slot and a problem picking up the correct one if the gripperman (driver) let his cable out of the gripper.

A map by the late J C Gillham shows a double cable track from the terminus at Goldenacre and incidentally no crossovers between there and the Canonmills junction (laid in when the Broughton Street line was constructed). The OS map for 1894 also shows a double track:

Howard Street Photo

"The Howard Street photo appears to show a cable car approaching the photographer, immediately to the right of the carriage – with an enclosed lower saloon and an open upper deck."

"By 1920 there were two routes using this stretch of track, between Goldenacre and Canonmills:

- Goldenacre to Craiglockhart, via Broughton Street, Leith Street, Princes Street, Lothian Road and Polwarth: No. 9

- Goldenacre to Hanover Street via Dundas Street: no number

The photo is clearly after the route opened in 1888 but before it was electrified in 1922.

It is indistinct but there must have been two pairs of rails each with a slot between – I suggest the ‘gauge’ of the coach was probably about the same as the gauge of the tram line."

David King, Trinity, Edinburgh: January 17, 2012