Photograph taken on the back green behind Craigmillar Castle Gardens

Craigmillar Back Greens

Baby, Sandra Givan on the Back Green

Thank you to Sandra Givan, Craigmillar for allowing me to reproduce this family photograph of back greens at Craigmillar

Sandra wrote:

"Happy days were ahead of me, especially playing in the back green, ideal for rounders. You could hit it for miles without breaking windows, and nobody complained."

Sandra Givan, Craigmillar, Edinburgh: October 19, 2007

Sandra, a few months later

Here is another photograph of Sandra, taken a few months later, outside the pre-fab houses at Greendykes, on her first birthday.

Question

Where is it?

I originally thought that the back greens above were those behind Craigmillar Castle Terrace, where Sandra Givan, the baby in the photograph above lived at the time.

However, Ralph Maltman commented:

Not Craigmillar?

"Sorry, but that's not Craigmillar. We never had windows in the stairs, and there is no corner building anywhere in Craigmillar. I have confirmed this with a lady who is a perfectionist in this area."

Ralph Maltman, Canada: October 12, 2008

So, does anybody recognise where the photograph might have been taken?

Replies

Thank you to everybody who has sent replies. My conclusion is that this photo sent by Sandra Givan is, indeed, of the backs of the buildings in Craigmillar Castle Grove. Please see Reply 10 below for further details.

Peter Stubbs: May 14, 2011

Answers and further recollections
1.	Andy Hall Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England	- West Pilton? - No
2.	Bob Henderson Burdiehouse, Edinburgh	- Craigmillar or Prestonfield? - Yes
3.	Sandra Givan Craigmillar, Edinbrugh	- Craigmillar Castle Gardens
4.	Peter Stubbs Edinbrugh	- Craigmillar Castle Gardens - Photograph and Map
5.	Sandra Givan Craigmillar, Edinbrugh	- Craigmillar Castle Gardens
6.	Johnni Stanton Peffermill, Edinburgh	- Cairntows Park - Craigmillar Castle Gardens - Friends
7.	Johnni Stanton Peffermill, Edinburgh	- Craigmillar Castle Estate - Craigmillar Map - Craigmillar: 9 areas
8.	Kelly Rooney Broxburn, West Lothian, Scotland	- Craigmillar Castle Estate
9.	Helen Fowler Canada	- Cairntows Park - Work - Return Visit to Edinburgh
10.	Johnni Stanton Peffermill, Edinburgh	- Craigmillar Castle Estate

Answer

Bob Henderson

Burdiehouse, Edinburgh

Craigmillar or Prestonfield?

Bob Henderson wrote:

"Hi Peter: Sam Maltman is wrong on at least one point.

The houses in Craigmillar did indeed have stair windows as can be seen in your panorama.

Please click on this panorama below to enlarge it.

The stair windows all looked out into the backgreens. When you look at the panorama it has to be remembered that the chimneys were to the front of the gables. You will see in the centre of the panorama that you see the back of the building and that it is symmetrical about the centre vertical row of windows. These were the stair windows.

I remember them well as my wife-to-be lived in Harewood Road and I spent quite some time in her stair saying my goodnights.

The other possibility is Prestonfield as these houses were very similar to the Craigmillar houses, as has been noted here before. I know they had stair windows as my grandfather lived in Prestonfield from when the houses were new until he died in 1961.

Bob Henderson, Burdiehouse, Edinburgh: October 13, 2008

Answer

Sandra Givan

Craigmillar, Edinbrugh

Craigmillar Castle Gardens

Sandra Givan, who sent me the photograph above, after speaking to several of her relatives, replied:

"From my memories, this really looks like the Craigmillar houses and backgreen, with the washing polls all in the centre. We used to make great swings there.

There was also a metal fence around the centre of the backgreen and we also used to play on that. Thinking about it now, the fence was very dangerous with spears on the top. Within the fence, there was a sort of no-mans-land with overgrown grass etc. Thats were we had our big bonfires."

and:

"I've just spoken to several relatives including my mother. She is sure this photo was taken in the back green of Craigmillar Castle Gardens (not Craigmillar Castle Terrace as I said previously).

This back green is very similar to the type in the in Craigmillar Castle Terrace where we lived. Hence my mistake.

As Bob says (above) I was sure that there were windows in the stairs that looked out to the backgreens, too."

Sandra Givan, Craigmillar, Edinburgh: October 13, 2008

Answer

Peter Stubbs

Edinbrugh

Craigmillar Castle Gardens

I agree with Sandra's conclusion in 3. above.

I've marked on the 1940 map, below, where the photograph would have been taken from.

© Reproduced with acknowledgement to Sandra Givan, Craigmillar, Edinburgh

Photograph and Map

This area of this map where the red arrow has been drawn clearly shows:

- TOP LEFT OF PHOTO: The backs of the houses that face onto Peffermill Road.

- TOP CENTRE OF PHOTO: The curved block of houses on the corner of Niddrie Mains Road and Craigmillar Castle Gardens

- TOP RIGHT OF PHOTO: The houses on either side of Craigmillar Castle Grove, including the gaps in these houses.

Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: October 13, 2008

Thank you to Johnni Stanton (Answer 6 below) for also telling me:

- The Recreation Ground on this map is Cairntows Park.

(I've also seen this named Craigmillar Park on some maps)

- The Road House is the old White House pub.

Johnni Stanton, Peffermill, October 28, 2008

Answer

Sandra Givan

Craigmillar, Edinbrugh

Craigmillar Castle Gardens

Sandra Givan added:

"Thanks for all that. Your map makes it so clear. Gran lived at the bottom of the Gardens, down a little from the arrow on your map. Her house is still standing.

So it went like this, Mum went to visit Gran, and they went out to the backgreen to take the photo of the new baby - me.

The Terrace as you see would share the same backgreen. I lived on the other side of the street in the Terrace at the other end, at No 7."

Sandra Givan, Craigmillar, Edinburgh: October 14, 2008

Answer

Johnni Stanton

Peffermill, Edinburgh

Johnni Stanton for identifying some of the places on the map above. Johnni also wrote:

Cairntows Park

"Cairntows Park was part of the Cairntows farm land that was also part of the Preston-Gilmour Craigmillar Castle Estate.

Abutting the Park is the word 'Brewery'. This has all been pulled down and is now called Dryburgh Crescent (after the brewery owners).

Some new private housing has been built there and the builders have caused a furore for tearing down trees in the Park. Rumour is that they want to build over the Park.

The only part of the old Brewery still standing is the old distillery, part of which is a boxing gym."

Craigmillar Castle Gardens

"I live on the 8th floor of Peffermill Court, which is in the ground to the left of your red arrow, next to the Railway Line. I see those buildings the arrow is pointing at every day though my windows, so I'm confirming Sandra's location.

Friends

"My best friend lived in the top floor of the first half of the semi-circle, while an old schoolmate lived in the opposite half.

I knew the Maltmans. They lived in Mitchell Street, now Peffer Place, then moved to Bingham."

Johnni Stanton, Peffermill, October 28 + 30, 2008

Answer

continued

Craigmillar Castle Estate

The main roads leading into the crossroads at the centre of this map are:

- FROM THE WEST: Peffermill Road

- FROM THE EAST: Niddrie Mains Road

- FROM THE NORTH: Duddingston Park South

- FROM THE SOUTH: Craigmillar Castle Road

Johnni wrote about the backgreens and open spaces numbered on this map:

Area 1

"There was no metal fence on this backgreen where Sandra Givan was photographed in 1960."

Area 2

"The dentist, doctor and Bisto Memorial Church were all in the streets surrounding this backgreen."

Area 3

"There was a fence in this backgreen, bounded by CC Terrace, 13 - 29, Gardens, Avenue and Road. It was the boundary grounds of Peffermill primary school, sadly burned down a few years ago."

Area 4

"Across from Craigmillar Castle Avenue, looking at Craigmillar Castle, is the present Craigmillar Country Park, which used to be:

- fields where we nicked the tatties, tumshies and carrots with some regularity.

- Castle Park, where there was a 'Rock Against the Nazis' gig in 1977.

- Danger Woods, where there were huts holding the last of the fireworks from the gunpowder factory that used to there. Hence the name 'Danger'. We found lots of gunpowder and a Verey pistol there.

The woods were reputedly haunted by the ghost of Charlie Whiterubbers, a caretaker who got killed there at some undetermined point in time. Personally I think it's one of those urban myths.

But the Castle at the top of the Castlebrae had 'The Green Lady'. I'm looking into that legend at the moment, and have uncovered a few clues in my research."

Area 5

"In Sandra Givan's backgreen (stair nos. 1- 9), there was a railinged fence, with many of the railings missing and or bent. I know 'cos my mates lived in stairs 3 (Richardson) 5 (Cunningham & Rutherford) and 7 (Park and Parker) in the 1960s."

Area 6

"Here were allotments (after the prefabs were flattened) and the Hawkhill Woods with the old quarry."

Area 7

"I lived in 8 Craigmillar Castle Terrace, on the south side of this backgreen. Niddrie Mains Road was on the north side of this backgreen. That's where all the shops, polis station and White Hoose were."

Area 8

"This was the biggest backgreen. It also contained the garage, the Creamery (both long since pulled down) and St Cuthbert's Co-op.

These last two have been replaced with the Medical Centre. Lidl's store, shops, Castle Tavern and Londi's store.

Area 9

"Across from that part of the Avenue were Sandy's Boys Club, and a cornfield leading to Greendykes along the old Skinny Woods.

Castlebrae Secondary School was built there in the 1970s."

Johnni Stanton, Peffermill, October 31, 2008

Answer

Kelly Rooney

Broxburn, West Lothian, Scotland

Thank you to Kelly Rooney, another person to confirm the location of this photo.

Kelly wrote:

Craigmillar Castle Estate

"I can confirm that it is the back gardens of Craigmillar Castle Grove, Peffermill Road and part of Craigmillar Castle Gardens.

I can confirm this because from 1980 to 1992 I lived there!

There were corner buildings in Craigmillar that were 4 in a block of flats. That's what I lived in. All the other flats were 6 in a block."

Kelly Rooney, Broxburn, West Lothian, Scotland: November 15, 2008

Answer

Helen Fowler

Canada

Thank you to Helen Fowler who wrote

Cairntows Park

"I just had to make a comment on the rec. ground you call Cairntows Park . I used to live at 13 Station Road, Craigmillar. (See also Note 1 below)

When I was there, The Park was completely surrounded by a 5 1/2 foot iron railing which was very quickly removed when the war started, to help build tanks and such like."

Work

"My grandfather was the keeper of the gates further down the road to Portobello at Forkenford.

My father, like most of the men in the 'village', as we called it, worked in one of the breweries of which there were 7 in all.

Return Visit to Edinburgh

"Before the war Craigmillar Castle Estate did not exist. I left for Canada when in 1955 when I was 23 and didn't come back for 25 years, so you can imagine how shocked I was to see how the place had fallen apart (See Note 2, below) - but I guess that's life."

Helen Fowler, Canada: January 18, 2009

NOTES

(1) Helen mentions that she lived at 13 Station Road Craigmillar until 1955. Another recent contributor, Jim Cowan, now also living in Canada, lived at 13 Station Road from 1938 until 1959.

(2) Helen mentions what she found when she returned to Craigmillar in 1980. In fact the area is improving again now, with lots of new building, but the pace of redevelopment now seems likely to slow down as a result of the recession.

Peter Stubbs: January 27, 2009

Answer

10.

Johnni Stanton

Peffermill, Edinburgh

Thank you to Johnni Stanton for for writing again. Johnni wrote:

Craigmillar Castle Estate

"While on duty at The White House yesterday, I had a visit from 'the perfectionist' mentioned in the Question paragraph near the top of this page. She insisted that:

- Ralph Maltman's comments in that paragraph were correct i.e. Photo 1 below was not taken at Craigmillar AND

- there were no windows in the stairs in the Craigmillar Castle Grove buildings (a fact that has already been disputed by others).

I can confirm that there were stair windows in these buildings, and I offer Photo 2 below, taken from the building that I live in, as evidence that Photo 1 does indeed show the backs of the houses in Craigmillar Castle Grove."

Photo 1

Photo 2

Conclusion

Craigmillar Castle Estate

Thank you Johnni.

Photo 2 above seems to me to be conclusive evidence that Photo 1 was indeed taken at Craigmillar, as Sandra Girvan who supplied the photo says.

The windows in the backs of the houses that stood in the curved row on the corner of Peffermill Road and Craigmillar Castle Grove match exactly on both photos!

Peter Stubbs: Edinburgh, May 14, 2011