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Cabinet Portrait Railway Workers and Engine |
Where and When?
Answer: Tuthill Quarry, County Durham, England
Probably between 1888 and 1895
See 'Reply 7' below
© Reproduced with acknowledgement to Phil Wild: December 28, 2011
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Railway Workers and Engine |
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Phil Wild wrote: |
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Questions "This photo purports to be one of my wife's ancestors. I'm trying to pin down the location and date of the photo if I can. I'm guessing that the photo might have been taken around 1890. Blown up, the plate on the engine reads
I wonder if the stuff on the back or the cabinet photo might be of significance.
© Phil Wild, Saddleworth, Greater Manchester, England:: December 28, 2011 |
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Reply to Phil? If you can help to answer the questions that Phil asks above, please email me then I'll pass on your message to him. Thank you. Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: December 31, 2011 |
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Reply 1. Phil Wild Saddleworth, Greater Manchester, England |
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Location? Thank you to Phil Wild for writing again. Phil has now told me where he hopes to find that the photo was taken, but I'll not add the name of the place to the web site yet. Instead, I'll wait and see if I get any replies. Acknowledgement: Phil Wild, Saddleworth, Greater Manchester, England: December 31, 2011 |
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Reply 2. David Bain Rotherham, South Yorkshire, England |
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Thank you to David Bain who wrote: |
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0-4-0ST Manning Wardle Shunters "I've been digging and have found a photo of two near-identical locos on the Hull & Barnsley Railway on this page of the LNER Railway Encyclopaedia web site. Neither carried the fleet number 2, though. It's a strange coincidence given that the writing on the back of the photograph refers to the Earl of Yarborough, whose estate was in the Hull & Barnsley area. Just to confuse things, of course, Manning Wardle made standard designs. Many went into industrial use and there are even preserved examples in Australia and New Zealand." David Bain, Rotherham, South Yorkshire, England: December 31, 2011 |
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Reply 3. David King Trinity, Edinburgh |
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Thank you to David King who wrote: |
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Manning Wardle "An interesting question! For a start my guess is that this is not a local picture to Edinburgh. Manning Wardle were in Leeds, as stated, and as far as I know very few of their locomotives were used in Scotland. Their production was largely industrial tank engines, although the main line railways bought small numbers from time to time. The adverts on the back of the photo are probably a good clue, suggesting that the photo was taken in Hull or nearby. Manning Wardle were in existence from 1858 to 1927 during which time they built just over 2,000 locomotives. So number 498 is one of the earlier ones – at a guess maybe built in the 1870s. * It is clearly not brand new in the photograph." * The engine plate mentioned by Phil Wild above appears to be dated 1874 Location "What the location is, I have no idea – presumably a works or colliery, as the track and ‘ballasting’ are not in a good state. The loco presumably had to deal with non-main line type vehicles, such as small hopper wagons or something similar, as in addition to short buffers in the usual position there are also blocks extending below the buffer beams to cope with small vehicles, together with a plate extending below the rear buffer beam. It probably did not venture far afield given its very small coal capacity in the side bunkers and from its condition would probably not have been allowed on a main line railway. There is information online about Manning Wardle but unfortunately I can’t find a list of the locos they built and who bought them." David King, Trinity, Edinburgh: December 31, 2011 |
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Reply 4. Phil Wild Saddleworth, Greater Manchester, England |
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I found the comments in David King's 'Location' paragraph above and his reference to the loco having possibly been used on a colliery to be interesting. Earlier this evening, Phil Wild wrote: |
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Location and Date "I'm hoping the engine proves to have been in service somewhere near Shotton Colliery in the North East of England between, say, 1888 and 1895." David King, Trinity, Edinburgh: December 31, 2011 |
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Date The style of card that the photo is mounted on looks typical of the style that was in use (invariably for studio portraits) in the 1880s and 1890s. These were very popular in that period but soon went out of fashion around 1900. Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: December 31, 2011 |
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Reply 5. Euan Cameron New York, New York, USA |
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Thank you to Euan Cameron who wrote: |
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Manning Wardles "Somebody else raised a question on the Internet about this engine, MW498. There is an interesting Industrial Railway Society web page on Manning Wardles locos. The loco in the header on this page is very similar to that in your photo, except that MW498 has Naylor safety valves, which were quite rare (and a bad idea generally, hence their rarity)." Euan Cameron, New York, New York, USA: January 1, 2012 |
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Reply 6. David Bain Rotherham, South Yorkshire, England |
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Thank you to David Bain for writing again. David added: |
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Loco MW498 "Somebody else has asked a question about this loco on this Brunell Steam Model Engineering web forum, but to date no information has been provided." David Bain, Rotherham, South Yorkshire, England: January 1, 2012 |
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This may be the question that Euan Cameron also found on the Internet. The question was asked in August 2010 and until today had received only one reply (which seems not to be relevant) so I signed up to to the forum today and posted a comment to see if that might provoke any further response. Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: January 1, 2012 |
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Reply 7. Brian Lacey East Grinstead, West Sussex, England |
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Thank you to Brian Lacey who wrote: |
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Location Tuthill or Haverton Hill?
"MW 498 was one of Manning Wardle's
standard H class - It was supplied new to J Witham & Son, Perseverance Ironworks Ltd, named 'Perseverance'. - It was later sold to the Tuthill Limestone Co, Tuthill Limestone Quarry. - It was then sold to Casebourne & Co, Haverton Hill. - Its final recorded owner was the North Beechburn Coal Co Ltd, who named it 'Arrow'.
I suggest the photo may have been taken either at Tuthill or Haverton Hill." Brian Lacey, East Grinstead, West Sussex, England: October 6+8, 2012 |
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Location (a) Tuthill Quarry (mentioned by Brian Lacey above) was in County Durham, about 7 miles east of the city of Durham, North East England. (b) Haverton Hill (also mentioned by Brian Lacey above) is in County Durham, in the borough of Stockton on Tees, about 20 miles SE of the city of Durham. (c) Phil Wild who provided the photo above wrote in Recollections 4 above:: "I'm hoping that the engine proves to have been in service somewhere near Shotton Colliery in the North East of England between say 1888 and 1895" Phil Wild, Saddleworth, Greater Manchester, England: December 28, 2011 |
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Result Shotton Colliery was about 1 mile to the south of Tuthill Quarry. So it appears that Brian Lacey (above) has found the link that Phil Wild was hoping would be found. This photo would have been taken at Tuthill Quarry, probably between 1888 and 1895. Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: October 10, 2012 |
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Reply 8. Phil Wild Saddleworth, Greater Manchester, England |
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Phil Wild replied: |
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Location "That is amazing. The power of the internet, eh? It would have been Tuthill, as that is where the ancestor was killed in a railway accident in 1895." Acknowledgement: Phil Wild, Saddleworth, Greater Manchester, England: August 10, 2012 |
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