Postcard by an unidentified publisher - Looking to the west along Princes Street at the Royal Scottish Academy

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Steven Oliver

Duns, Borders, Scotland

Thank you to Steven Oliver, a member of an Internet group devoted to Edinburgh street lighting, for providing more details about the lamp posts in Princes Street.

Steven wrote:

Princes Street

1. Early 1900s

"This photo features cast-iron columns, with carbon arc lanterns, made by Mackenzie Bros (later Mackenzie & Moncur) who had a foundry in Morningside.

These columns started to appear around the beginning of the 20th century. A similar design was also made by Falkirk Iron Co around the same time, but with a few detail differences which makes it easy to tell the two apart.

These lampposts would have been re-sited elsewhere in the city when the electric tram system was being laid down.

2. Around 1920

"This photo features traction poles, quite possibly made by Mackenzie Bros/Mackenzie & Moncur. These were installed when the Edinburgh cable trams were replaced by electric trams around 1920.

I'm not entirely sure about the make of lanterns fitted to the traction poles, but they had incandescent lamps fitted.

When the tramway system was closed in the 1950s, the traction poles were then used for streetlighting.

3. Today

There are still 23 of the cast-iron columns (See 1. above) surviving today. 18 of these, along with 12 Sugg Lighting Co replicas are in North Bridge

There are still 85 of the Mackenzie Bros/Mackenzie & Moncur traction poles (See 2 above) surviving today. Most are in Melville Drive (65), St Andrew Square (11) and The Mound (4).

Steven Oliver, Duns, Borders, Scotland: October 27+28, 2010

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Steven Oliver

Duns, Borders, Scotland

Steven replied:

Sewer Vent Pipes

"The two vertical metal posts either side of the Mackenzie Bros lighting column in South St David Street are sewer vent pipes, cleverly integrated into the column itself. These were also made by Mackenzie Bros. There would likely have been more columns like this, with the sewer vent pipes either side, throughout Edinburgh at one time."

St Andrew Street

"Up until 1983, this column and a similar one in South St Andrew Street had functioning lanterns fitted to them. Apparently, they have been 'due for replacement' since then, but have been left alone.

It would be nice to think that at some point they could be brought back into use by fitting heritage 'teardrop' lanterns to them, as the electricity supply will probably still be in place"

Steven Oliver, Duns, Borders, Scotland: October 29, 2010

Update

Steven wrote again, adding:

"I have just seen news through about the remaining St Andrew Square traction poles. These are currently in the process of receiving modern lanterns, so it seems safe to say that their future is assured."

Steven Oliver, Duns, Borders, Scotland: December 28, 2010

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to Question

Steven Oliver

Duns, Borders, Scotland

A few hours after I added questions 3 and 4 above to the web site, Steven Oliver emailed me.

Steven wrote:

"I can answer Question 3.

Lamp Posts

"The answer is 23. This is based on research that I did for the Edinburgh Streetlighting Yahoogroup.

The location breakdown as follows:

- West Bowling Green Street - 1
- Kirk Street - 1
- Casselbank Street - 1
- King Street - 1
- Mill Lane * - 3
- Henderson Street - 4
- Henderson Gardens - 1
- Shore - 7
- Customs Wharf aka Sandport - 2
- Parliament Street * - 1
- Yardheads - 1"

* These columns have heritage 'teardrop' lanterns fitted.

Wall Brackets

"For completeness, there are also at:

- Junction Place, 2 wall-mounted brackets with lanterns fitted.

- Shore Place, a disused wall-mounted bracket, no lantern fitted.

- Doctor's Surgery, East Trinity Road, a privately-owned bracket with lantern fitted.

History

"These old Leith columns were made by a Glasgow company called Macdowall Steven and Co Ltd. They are thought to date from the early 20th century.

The Shore and Sandport ones aren't native to there, but are thought to have originally stood in North Junction Street and to have been moved to their present locations when North Junction Street was relit in the early-1980s."

Steven Oliver, Duns, Borders, Scotland: December 26, 2010

Steven added:

"Many of these old Leith lamp posts have their maker's name embossed at the base of the column. Some of the embossments have worn away through time but a good example of an intact embossment can be found on the Macdowall Stevens column on the corner of Casselbank Street and Kirk Lane."

Steven Oliver, Duns, Borders, Scotland: December 28, 2010

More Photos

Steven also sent me some of his photos taken in the same area a couple of months earlier, on the last Saturday of British Summer Time, 2010.

Here are two of them:

Looking across to The Shore

Lamp Post Detail

Please click on these thumbnail images to enlarge them and read about them.

Steven Oliver, Duns, Borders, Scotland: December 26, 2010

Question

Granton Harbour

2007

Thank you to Miles Cumming for allowing me to reproduce this photo, which he took in 2007. It showsof one of the old lamp posts still standing at Middle Pier, Granton Harbour.

Miles tells me that this lamp post 'disappeared' soon after he took the photo.

2004

Three years earlier, in 2004, I had found four of these lamp posts still standing on Middle Pier at Granton Harbour. Here are some photos that I took of one of them, including detail from the plate on its base, showing it to have been cast at Alloa Foundry in 1842.

Question 5

Do you know if these lamp posts have been saved. Are they likely to be restored and reinstalled on Granton Middle Pier?

Granton Middle Pier, including slipways, wharves and lamp standards have all been listed 'Category A' by Historic Scotland since 1989. This should give them some protection.

Peter Stubbs: December 28, 2010

Question

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Steven Oliver

Duns, Borders, Scotland

Thank you to Steven Oliver for replying to Question 6 above, and for sending me some photos taken in Edinburgh of the lamp post on the left, illustrated on this page of the in MacKenzie & Moncur catalogue:

I have reproduced two of Steven's photos below. Please click on the thumbnail images to enlarge them.

Steven wrote:

"Here are some photos of the old cast-iron lamp post at the foot of Glenfinlas Street, that I took in 2009. According to the Mackenzie & Moncur catalogue, I know now that it is a No.3 column and No.7 bracket.

This is the last example of this combination still standing in Edinburgh. There were many more at one time, including in the Grassmarket.

This relic is also not original to this location. There are traces of a red painted band on the column which indicates that it originally served as a tram stop elsewhere in Edinburgh and was moved here at some point, quite possibly during the 1920s when the tram systems were being electrified - a common practice at the time."

Steven Oliver, Duns, Borders, Scotland: December 29, 2010

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Graeme Paterson

Edinburgh

Thank you to Graeme Paterson who replied to my question: "

Those illustrated in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 6th pictures below were all supplied to Edinburgh

Do you know where any of these (or any other lamp MacKenzie & Moncur street lighting standards) were installed in Edinburgh, and if they are still in use?

Graeme wrote with comments about the lamp posts above, and gave me links to some of his photos on the Edinburgh Historic Lighting Photos (EHLP) web site.

LEFT

Grassmarket and Queen Street

"These were not that common in Edinburgh but they are probably best remembered lining both sides of the Grassmarket and the north side of Queen Street until the early 1980s.

One has survived, it is at the foot of Glenfinlas Street."

Link: 1989 Photo: Album 7, Photo 75

RIGHT

Portobello Promenade

"This column with the double bracket in that form is sadly now extinct. These aligned Portobello Promenade until around 1983.

The only other known examples were:

- one in Leith Street by Calton Road,

- one at Blackhall junction

The Leith Street example was the final survivor, lasting until 1985. I photographed it in 1984."

Link: 1984 Photo: Album 4, Photo 35

LEFT

Hailes Area and Russell Road

"This column became extinct in 2005. The last examples stood in the Hailes area. Here are some in Hailes Grove, photographed in 1989."

Link: 1989 Photo: Album 8, Photo 19

Russell Road

"There was another example in Russell Road photographed in 1989, removed in 1991."

Link: 1989 Photo: Album 7, Photo 80

RIGHT

Where?

"I don't recognise that triple bracket example at all. These must have stood on a junction islands.

There was a triple bracket like this but on a traction pole. This was located the centre of Tollcross junction until around 1969.

Graeme Paterson, Edinburgh: December 30, 2010

Question

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Peter Rivet

Lancaster, Lancashire, England

Thank you to Peter Rivet, a member of the Edinburgh Streetlighting Group, who replied:

"The MacKenzie & Moncur catalogue is a great find. I can add a little to the list of locations."

Three Way Lamp

The one on the right
in this illustration

Torphichen Street

"One of these lamps lit the triangular area at the corner of Torphichen Street and West Maitland Street."

Newhaven

"Although I don't recall seeing it, there was evidently one at the northern end of Craighall Road in Newhaven.

It can be seen in the background of these two pictures, looking to the west and to the north towards the foot of Craighall Road.

Looking west

Looking north

NOTE: Clicking on the two thumbnail images above, or on the two tram thumbnail images below will take you to a page with the image on the National Tramway Museum web site.

Update

Walter Lyle Hume added:

Tram Stop

"The Lamp post referred to above was also signposted 'Tram Stop'. The road was very wide at that part and boarding a tram for Granton required walking out to the lamp post, although the traffic was relatively light in those days. I used the service to and from Granton during the early 1950's during my tenure with Lighthouse ships."

Walter Lyle Hume, Cowes, Isle of Wight, England: January 4, 2010

Cast Iron Gas Lamp Standards

The first four below are 101, 102, 103, 107

Edinburgh

"No. 101 and 103 gas lamp columns were used in Edinburgh but not, so far as I know, No. 102 or 107 - though they are shown with the correct kind of gas lantern, and the other two aren't.

The 101 and 103 illustrations show the Alder & Mackay lantern which was used in North Berwick and elsewhere, and was (according to Simon Cornwell's web site) made in Edinburgh by another firm.

The distinctive crossbar on the no. 107 column is correct for the short version for mounting on top of a wall (Pillar No 204, below) so this too must have been a Mackenzie product."

Street Lighting Standards for mounting on Walls, etc.

The top-left illustration is Pillar No 204

Wrought Iron Brackets for Main Street Lighting

The top illustration is Bracket No 73

Tramway Extensions

"Bracket No. 73 appears to be the one that was used on the traction poles associated with:

a) the tram route extension, Braids to Fairmilehead

Fairmilehead Terminus

b) the projected tram route, Goldenacre to Crewe Toll *

c) the projected tram route, Stenhouse to Calder Crescent *

but not, for some reason on:

d) the tram route extension, Corstorphine to Maybury, which was built at much the same time.

There was also a single isolated example of one of these brackets on Seafield Road. It was presumably a replacement for one damaged in an accident."

* These routes were never finished

Cast Iron Lamp Standard

Modified for electrical equipment

"A variant to accommodate electrical equipment was found at the base of quite a lot of the cast iron traction poles. One of these can be seen on this photo of Trinity Crescent."

Trinity Crescent

Road Traffic Signs

Note the road signs in this photo. They are 'Double Bend' and 'Tram Pinch', both warning of the road ahead where it turns left then right in order to pass under the railway bridge at the foot of Trinity Road.

The old railway to Granton Harbour has now been removed, as has the railway embankment between Granton Harbour and Trinity Bridge. The bridge has also been taken down - so the double bend in the road is no longer required, but it remains, until funds can be found to straighten the road.

Realignment of the road was scheduled for 2009-10, but this never happened.

Peter Stubbs: January 3, 2010

Peter Rive, Lancaster, Lancashire, England: January 2, 2010

Question

Reply

Steven Oliver

Duns, Borders, Scotland

Thank you to Steven Oliver for sending me two more photos of lamp posts in Edinburgh, having looked at the MacKenzie & Moncur catalogue and discovered which style they were.

Steven wrote:

Lighting Columns

"These are MacKenzie & Moncur No. 204 wall-top columns, featured on page 14 of the 1937 brochure (top left|).

There are quite a few of these still in existence in Edinburgh. Here are two examples."

Randolph Lane

"The first example is in Randolph Lane. It has a modern lantern fitted. It would originally have been a gas lighting column."

Ellen's Glen Loan

"The second example is in Ellen's Glen Loan. It has a 'swan-neck' bracket fitted, along with a 1960s lantern, typifying the conversions carried out to these wall-top columns from gas to electric lighting."

Steven Oliver, Duns, Borders, Scotland: January 3, 2011

Question

Mike Melrose

Greenbank, Edinburgh

Mike Melrose wrote:

Ceremonial Lamp Posts

"Perhaps some of your contributors could shed some light (pardon the pun) on my question.

Here is a photo of a lamp post that sits in the garden of a house on the corner of Greenbank Grove and Greenbank Road. From time to time I have noticed similar Lamp Posts in gardens throughout Edinburgh.

I have a vague recollection that these Lamp Posts were presented for some form of civic service to Edinburgh, long serving Councilors etc. Is this correct? Or are there other reasons?

I am pretty sure, from looking at it that this was originally a Gas Street Lamp, although there is a bulb sitting on the base of the lantern housing.

Any information from your contributors would be most welcome.

Mike Melrose, Greenbank, Edinburgh: January 8, 2011

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Peter Stubbs

Edinburgh

Lamp Posts in Gardens

This could be a lamp post that has been purchased privately.

To me, it looks too simple to be one of the Bailies' lamps, mentioned below. I believe that the Bailies' lamps are more elaborate, like those outside the McEwan Hall.

I assume there is nothing to prevent a person from buying a lamp post, either new or second-hand, and putting it in their garden, though any attempt to install it on the pavement outside their house would presumably be a different matter!

Bailies' Lamps

Since the early-C18, Edinburgh council has installed two ceremonial lamp posts (Bailies' lamps) outside the home of the Lord Provost, either on the pavement or inside the grounds.

Certain other councillors (those who were Bailies) also used to be provided with one lamp post each outside their homes, but this tradition ended in 1975.

Now, it is now only the Lord Provost who gets the lamp posts. One of their two lamp post is removed when they demit office. The other remains in place for the rest of their life. I believe that Edinburgh's Lord Provosts, who are still living, are:

- 1977: Kenneth Borthwick

- 1984: Dr John McKay

- 1988: Eleanor McLaughlin

- 1992: Dr Norman Irons

- 1996: Eric Milligon

- 2003: Lesley Hinds

- 2007: George Grubb

I don't have a list of the addresses where their lamp posts are installed, but I did notice (and photograph) what looked like one of them in York Road, Trinity, recently.

Peter Stubbs, Edinburgh: January 10, 2010

Acknowledgement: Brief details about Edinburgh's Bailies' Lamps have been provided by Edinburgh City Archivist, Richard Hunter. He is quoted at the end of this article on the leicester.gov web site

Question

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Peter Rivet

Lancaster, Lancashire, England

Thank you to Steven Oliver, Duns, Borders, Scotland, for sending me these comments from Peter Rivet. Peter wrote

"The no. 115 pillar** is that used for the Baillies' lamp and is fitted with the accompanying lantern - painted green and gold, and were placed outside each Baillie's door (until 1975) for his/her term of office. The Lord Provost had two.

The form of lighting used for these depended on what was around elsewhere in the same road so c.1959 the one in Gordon Road in Corstorphine was gas, while the pair in Ravelston Dykes were electric.

After the Baillies were abolished in 1975 the lamp posts mostly found their way to Edinburgh University, and were placed outside the Students' Union (to give the impression that the students had taken over the City Council?). However, one of them was sent to Stratford-upon-Avon to go with the town's collection of lamp standards from cities round the world.

Peter Rivet, Lancaster, Lancashire, England: January 2010

** The '115 Pillar' that Peter refers to above is the middle one illustrated on this page of the MacKenzie & Moncur street lighting catalogue, published 1937. Please click on the thumbnail image below to enlarge it.

Question

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Peter Rivet

Lancaster, Lancashire, England

Thank you to Peter Rivet who wrote:

Edinburgh Lamp Post

"The lamp post in this picture is certainly a former Edinburgh gas lamp and it may, for all I know, have been given to a former councillor."

Lamp Posts for Sale

"Around 1960, Edinburgh Corporation were selling off their redundant lamp posts (of which they had plenty), at £2.10s for the lanterns and a further £2.10s for the posts.

However the example in the photo above is not one of the 'Baillie's lamps' which were of the special ornamental pattern shown as No.115 in the Mackenzie catalogue**.

They were painted green and gold. When I last saw them, they were outside Edinburgh University Students' Union**."

Peter Rivet, Lancaster, Lancashire, England: January 13, 2010

** See note at the bottom of 'Question 7, Reply 2

** They are still there. I photographed some of them last week. I'll add one or two of the photos to the web site when I can find time to do that.

Question

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Steve Milne

Edinburgh

I contacted the City of Edinburgh Council, Lighting Department yesterday and asked them about the Baillies' Lamp Posts. It took Steve Milne only a few hours to send me the helpful information below.

Baillie's Lamp Posts *Erected outside the houses of former and present Lord Provosts*
Number	*Location*	*Lord Provost*
1 lamp post	Easter Drylaw Place outside No 4, in garden	*Lesley Hinds*
1 lamp post	Hailes Grove outside No 22, in garden	*Eric Milligan*
1 lamp post	Oxgangs Green outside Nos 26/28, on footway	*Eleanor McLaughlin*
1 lamp post	Saughton Drive outside No 141, on footway	*Dr Norman Irons*
1 lamp post	York Road outside No 17, on footway	*Ken Borthwick*
2 lamp posts	Wellhead Close, South Queensferry outside No 10	*George Grubb*

Steve added:

"In 1982-83, 15 newly refurbished Baillies' lamp posts were erected outside the McEwan Hall in Bristo Square.

There is also a different style of column outside no 6 Villa Road, South Queensferry, in the garden. The history of this lamp post is not known."

Steve Milne, Edinburgh: January 18, 2011